[Final Fantasy] We are all the-Basch.

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Bier_Engel
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#101 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:18 am

Some people have no lives...

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#102 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:34 pm

Wait, FFT takes inspiration from the Bible? How disappointing.

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Bier_Engel
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#103 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:02 pm

Depends on what you mean by "inspiration." A lot of the big, religious figures in the game were the bad guys.

That said, I never really liked the idea behind the brave/faith system. I'm physically weak and I always figured that if I were in a video game, I'd be a mage of some sort, hands down, no matter what the series. With this system, people with low faith *can* cast magic, but it's ineffective. So as an atheist, I wouldn't even be able to be a mage in this context.

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#104 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:25 pm

Yeah, it seems a little weird that an extremely powerful mage would be more susceptible to the effects of magic.

Edit: Now, if it only affected clerical magic, that would make sense. You know, except Holy damage type...

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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#105 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:25 pm

True Perception wrote:Wait, FFT takes inspiration from the Bible? How disappointing.


Why would you consider this disappointing?

This is a crazy statement to me. The Bible is one of humanity's oldest stories, and certainly its most-told.

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#106 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:49 pm

It was more the Thor and the Apostles thing, but there are so much more obscure and interesting tales to tell than Thor.

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Parallax
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#107 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:26 pm

Oh. Well, FFT does... sort of... draw inspiration from that. I guess. >.> I doubt that you would consider its story disappointing in those terms though.

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#108 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:55 am

Not the whole story, no, but that part of it. I was just reading the very wordy part where Ramza is reading about St. Ajora, or whatever his name was. It hadn't dawned on me the connections between the Zodiac Braves and the Apostles, the Saint and the Son, and the Churches in both.

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Bier_Engel
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#109 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:50 am

True Perception wrote:Thor and the Apostles thing

This filter never disappoints.

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Pontiff of Zion
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#110 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:02 am

The bible is really more about civilization and people than it is about Thor and many of the myths are retellings of stories that have been passed down for at least 20 000 years. There's plenty of interesting stuff in there if you don't let yourself get put off entirely because modern fundamentalists don't understand allegory. If only to understand all the references to them that pervade our culture.

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#111 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:25 am

But, again, it's not the more interesting aspects of the Bible. It's Jesús, being a son of The One True Thor and traveling around with 12 dudes, and getting stabbed in the back by one of them. That's not exactly the height of storytelling in the Good Book.

Edit: Just wanted to see One True Thor in print! :awesome

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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#112 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:36 am

I was never sure whether it was just a misunderstanding of Christianity or a deliberate subversion that they tied the zodiac into the religion/faith system so closely. Church or state, the game's theme is mostly that power corrupts - practically everyone with status in that world is corrupt.

I always thought of the faith system as 'belief in magic'. If you are pig-headed enough to not believe in magic in that world, then you potentially wouldn't 'believe' in the amount of damage it might do. Contrary, if you are super into magic you would believe both that your spells and other people's spells are more effective. It's like schoolyard make-pretend.

The only thing that separates illusion and reality is belief.

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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#113 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:11 pm

Pontiff of Zargos wrote:The bible is really more about civilization and people than it is about Thor and many of the myths are retellings of stories that have been passed down for at least 20 000 years. There's plenty of interesting stuff in there if you don't let yourself get put off entirely because modern fundamentalists don't understand allegory. If only to understand all the references to them that pervade our culture.


As a mythology mixed in with Jewish pseudo-history, Christianity is pretty interesting even if our culture absorbs only the top-most layer of that.

And, yeah, FC's got it. Belief in FFT ties into belief in magic, which presumably stems from the deities of that world.

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Delthazar
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#114 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:27 pm

Also, so much modern (and not-so-modern) fiction cribs from the Bible in one way or another so to get put off that one thing does it but not all the fifteen million other things is kinda silly. And the Bible is just one. Try to count how many riffs you've seen on Gilgamesh over the years, or Beowulf. Ancient stories are continually retold, religious or not, sometimes without the storyteller even realizing what they're retelling, because they've already gone through hundreds of different variations. It's... normal.

The trick is not to get hung up on whether or not something is making a direct, unintentional, intentional, second or third-hand biblical reference, but to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it off when it doesn't matter and dismiss the shit that does it badly. Whatever FFT does in that area is barely noticeable, you sorta have to go out of your way to be annoyed by it.

However, a game like Xenogears (or anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion) paints it on so thick with crucifixes and wise men and verses written on walls or whatever, that it basically feels like the director is yelling at you "HEY! LOOK AT ALL THIS SYMBOLISM! LOOK HOW DEEP THIS IS!" when in reality the material has about all the depth of a dairy written by a teenager who just discovered goth music.

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Pontiff of Zion
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#115 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:52 pm

Del wrote:
However, a game like Xenogears (or anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion) paints it on so thick with crucifixes and wise men and verses written on walls or whatever, that it basically feels like the director is yelling at you "HEY! LOOK AT ALL THIS SYMBOLISM! LOOK HOW DEEP THIS IS!" when in reality the material has about all the depth of a dairy written by a teenager who just discovered goth music.


There's a whole lot of that stuff in Japanese popular culture, because Christianity is a thing but also sort of foreign. So in much the same way westerners will slap Yin Yangs and Tori gates on things to give them some flavour but not really worry about real-world accurate it is, they do the same thing with crosses and the like.

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Bier_Engel
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#116 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:01 pm

Del wrote:However, a game like Xenogears (or anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion) paints it on so thick with crucifixes and wise men and verses written on walls or whatever, that it basically feels like the director is yelling at you "HEY! LOOK AT ALL THIS SYMBOLISM! LOOK HOW DEEP THIS IS!" when in reality the material has about all the depth of a dairy written by a teenager who just discovered goth music.

I love you.

Falcon Critical wrote:I always thought of the faith system as 'belief in magic'. If you are pig-headed enough to not believe in magic in that world, then you potentially wouldn't 'believe' in the amount of damage it might do. Contrary, if you are super into magic you would believe both that your spells and other people's spells are more effective. It's like schoolyard make-pretend.
I figured as much, but the (main) characters with high faith are also the most religious otherwise as well, so it doesn't seem like they're separated, at least with the mains. For the rando party members, who knows.

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Falcon Critical
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#117 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:55 pm

If there was magic in our world, would it not be 'claimed' by religion? While it would be possible to believe in magic but not organised religion (magic agnostic) and still have a high faith score, religion is so bound into society that for the most part magic was/is probably considered religious.

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DHerder222
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#118 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:20 pm

Ooh, Xenogears talk!

Isn't it pretty much accepted by most gaming folks that the overuse of Christianity symbolism in Japanese culture is more due to the fact that they just think it's kinda cool and like the imagery?

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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#119 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:21 pm

DHerder222 wrote:Ooh, Xenogears talk!

Isn't it pretty much accepted by most gaming folks that the overuse of Christianity symbolism in Japanese culture is more due to the fact that they just think it's kinda cool and like the imagery?


Yeah, as Pointy mentioned, it's a little more foreign but familiar enough in that kind of way westerners treat Taoism to be "cool" in terms of religious iconography. So you have to remember, this sort of thing in Xenogears or NGE or whatever else is nowhere near as blatant as it appears to its primary target audience.

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DHerder222
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#120 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:24 pm

westerners treat Taoism to be "cool" in terms of religious iconography


The example in my head while writing that was ancient Greek lore. How many hundreds of times have we seen aspects of Olympus used?

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John Layfield
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#121 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:42 pm

Yeah, but like Christianity in the western world, we're so immersed in it that it doesn't stick out to us so much when it's used in our own fiction because due to our familiarity with the subject, you don't need to be quite so forward about it.

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#122 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:32 pm

I never really noticed the religious symbolism so much in Evangelion. I guess I didn't follow it long enough. The title went over my head, and the "Angels" just struck me as odd. Granted, I don't think I saw more than a hand full of episodes, and I could have easily just forgotten a lot of it by now.

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Bier_Engel
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#123 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:40 pm

I personally don't remember the super Xtian shit either, but it's also been awhile. I *do* remember Rei getting way more preference over Shinji from Shinji's own daddy, and that can fuck a kid up, especially if he's competing with a robot. Soooo, there's that.

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#124 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:40 pm

I've always found Greek mythology to be the most interesting, but I haven't delved much into others. I have found some things from others quite interesting. The most interesting thing about religions is where disparate ones, unconnected at the time have commonalities. Like the phoenix. It appeared, slightly different forms, in the British Isles, Europe, Asia, Northern Africa (Egypt), and the Americas, in most cases far before the 1400s. In most forms, they govern life, death, rebirth, and fire/sun, though the Mayan (and I believe Japanese) version(s), was lightning instead.

Edit: Also, I had a (slightly) hard time finding it, but I had once read a Native American poem about "Redbird" and I remembered it sounding like a Phoenix variant. Apparently, in Cherokee mythology, Redbird was the daughter of the Sun (Sun being considered female).

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheDaughterOfTheSun-Cherokee.html
Last edited by True Perception on Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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True Perception
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Re: [Final Fantasy 2] Bigger, Badder... and cut from the Tou

Post#125 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:42 pm

Blutiger_Engel wrote:Xtian


Was that a filter, or was that you? I've never seen it that way. It confused me for a second.

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